As The Garage is so close to GM Canada’s headquarters, and a large number of Durham Region’s population depend on The General, I have spent some time over the years justifying my position that Traditional Domestics (ie American cars) SUCK. They ask “how can you say that when your neighbour’s income depends on those cars” or “we take great pride in the quality of our cars”.
It’s true, that the Oshawa plant has the highest quality rating of any of GM’s plants. That’s right, us Canadian’s build better cars up here than are built south of the border. These guys & girls have a right to be proud. They build the best cars they can, within the parameters that are set out for them. That’s right, this high end production facilty is predetermined to build crap.
The traditional domestics have some pretty inspired stylists too. Is it their fault? Not on your life.
The technical designers then? Well, let’s face it. Some of the best cars in the world (think Accord & Camry) are built and designed in North America with North American designers. I’m pretty sure the designers and engineers bred here in North American are equal to or better than those from any other country.
So, why are American cars crap?
Because the companies profit structure dictates that the accounting staff decide the quality of the end product. The stylists design a prototype. The engineers put the technology into the car. The accountants determine what quality of raw materials will be used in the manufacturing facilty. Have you ever compared the quality of plastics used in a Traditional Domestic (ie American) with that of a similar quality Traditional Import (ie Japanese)? The Japanese Domestic will always have a richer feel, because a higher quality of plastic is used.
Japanese manufacturers build long term relationships with their suppliers that are based on a mutual goal. “We need this widget. Can we build it for X dollars? If not, How much?” American manufacturers put out a tender for a product and then choose the cheapest bidder. Anyone with any inkling of business sense knows that the cheapest supplier is going to be cutting corners somewhere. In essence, you get what you pay for.
If the Traditional Domestics want to start building cars of the same quality as the Traditional Imports, they should allow their designers and engineers to do their jobs. Give the suppliers and the guys on the line the same raw products that the designers specify. Now that will mean a vehicle with a higher cost. Tough. Rearrange the proft structure. If you are building fewer quality cars that actually sell instead of building cars to keep plants working, the company will make more money. Toyotas are typically a bit more expensive than Fords and Toyota doesn’t appologize. They built cars that sell without sitting on a lot for a year. When was the last time you saw Toyota offering Employee pricing?
Instead of allowing the accounting departments to hold a leash around all the other departments, reign in the accountants and allow the design and productions teams to build great cars. Then we might start seeing some great American cars instead of American cars that SUCK!
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I agree with the accountant remarks but I would also add that it takes way to long for american car makers to fix/ recall know problems (I would like to add that when it is a safety related issue the fix is as quick as the imports thus we know they can fix it but just don’t) . Example, when honda had a bearing cooling problem with it’s minivan transmissions the fix was put in place the next modle year. If we look at the american car we see known issues the continue year after year this is a management problem. Examples chrysler mini van tranmissions, GM mini van intake manifold and head gaskets, windstar electrical & tranmissions problems. On another note Who is running the show @ ford? The current focus is a good reliable car but it took about 8 years to get the bugs out of it. Every other car maker has come out with about two to three new modles in that time period even ford of europe has a new focus based on the mazda 3 but we get the old car @ almost the same price as the mazda 3!!!!
How about the multiple thousands of dollars for legacy costs baked into every GM car? If those were cut out I’m sure they could afford to put in better materials and fewer exposed screwheads.
Legacy cost removal = bankrupcy and leaving the pensioners to the US taxpayer.
BTW, GM ergonomics are still pretty crappy, they really need to clone a Volkswagen or Audi interior designer.
I am tool & die maker who has made his living making rubber dies for the auto industry. The Idea that we built anything less than a quality product because we had to win a bid to get the job is insulting. We also bid on japanese products. The long term supplier/auto relationship you refer to by the japanese only applies to those suppliers that toyota or honda own a large stake in, other wise they put there products out for bid like everyone else, we have done work for toyata & it required a low bid to get the work.
As for the quality of the car itself versus individual componets there is a difference in how the japanese, especially Toyata makes there cars. Over a car models life span the japanese make incremental improvements over a span of years. Each year fixing & improving the model, this is an evoulutinary approach, american autos come out with a new & exciting model every few years. Which uses many new parts & has teething problems. There are also many differenses in how the employees are treated trained & expected to contribute to the process. I could right a volume about this subject & many have, but the reason Detroit isnt selling cars has many reasons, not to mention the unions which the Japanese dont have to deal with.
American cars are actually the best overall.Safety,durability,comfort,unfortunately not economy.French cars are the most economical Peugeot Diesels,also Renault and Citroen diesels do over 60 miles per gallon in my experience.GM Opel/Vauxhall and Ford are the best selling cars in europe and are better than most jap cars.You yanks/canadians need to learn more about cars.You never see an accord or camry here,thank fuck!.
@ Jock dude, in europe US cars are changed to fit european standards you idiot. Just like comparing a corolla in japan to a corolla in the US they’re different, moron!
your a retard foreign cars suck they are made like fuckin shit and have no balls at all. the foreign trucks can mud about as good as a fuckin bicycle and the average toyota has about 90 horsepower. the engines go after 100,000 miles and the suspension falls apart just as fast so fuck you and your goddamn foreign cars
Carl and Jock, you are severly deluded.
American cars suck much worse than any other- European, Japanese and even now Korean. The product is shoddily produced. Attention to detail is ignored. There are no attempts to improve continuously until the ‘next breakthrough model’ years later.
However, I think that the real problem is deeper than you all think. It is a mentality problem. The Germans pay attention to detail and make things that last long- however, you will have to pay money to maintain items like that. Italians make cars that are not great mass-produced- but they have passion- great handling, good breaks and appealing more to emotions. The Japanese make cars that are very loyal and dependable and with incredible attention to detail. The electronics- a general weakness of the Europeans- is definitely a Japanese strength. They also make cars quite affordable and relatively easy to maintain- even Acuras, Infinitis and Lexus’.
As for the Americans, they just can’t compete. They don’t have the long-term view of the Germans that something should last forever or perform incredibly. They can’t appeal to emotions like the Italians and other Europeans. They can not pay attention to details and make well executed products that are reliable, fit and finish well, look nice (seen a 2008 Accord or Camry?) like the Japanese (and now Koreans). Americans could never really compete with the top Europeans in the luxury/performance area and they can’t compete with the Asians (Japanese & Koreans) in the middle and lower level segment because they just can’t build the same level of quality for the same price.
The main problem is that US is not a precise society that builds ’sushis’ like Japan, it is a imprecise society that builds items for immediate consumption that just about get the job done- like a hamburger- big fat and does the basic job.
It is a mentality thing my friends. Americans don’t have the mindset to build quality products. Whether you want great cars, electronics, jewelry, clothes, food, etc. you have to go elsewhere- America will just no do!!!!
Sorry for the kick of reality!
Oh man – like that isn’t just asking for trouble with our American readers!
All American cars are rubbish…check Topgear
Arktarman’s comments are on the spot!!! its all about ADAPTATION and really KNOWING your marketplace! GM many years back had over 40% of the marketplace, they finished with under 19%…. why, they could never cope with the ever changing market! simple but true! its really a management fuck up for the past 20 years!!!! its a shame but if you see a company that cannot be able to change, while all these European/Japanese/etc carmakers are introducing every year a better/nicer car into the market and you see that GM is doing nothing, then it was just a matter of time for them to fall and that time has come (June 1st, 2009)…. Unbelievable!!!!
American cars suck across the board. The companies cannot build cars that people really want to buy on a global basis. If they could, 2 out of the 3 remaining American car companies would not be in bankruptcy now.
They cannot compete on the basis of quality, they cannot compete on the basis of elegance, and they certainly cannot compete on the basis of performance. So what remains? Appealing on cheap populist and nationalistic emotions: “buy American”. That may influence a few rednecks and simpletons, but my patriotism is not measured by the products I buy.
Yes, American cars do suck. I just bought a certified pre-owned Jeep one year ago, and it is already giving me issues, such as convertible strap, shifter boot, a tailgate that is wearing and rattling, poor design on the tail gate that dented it, and now an inop horn. Screw this. I will only buy jap cars from now on. Had a Toyota PU a few years back that someone gave me, and that old thing ran like there’s no tomorrow. American cars suck, and they deserve to go out of business for as long as they’ve sucked!!! Will never buy American again!!!!!!
Jesse, Radman, et al,
What’s with the hysteria? U.S. cars are better and more reliable than they’ve ever been! I own a BMW 525 and have had four other Euro cars in the past. (M3, VW beetle, two Renaults.) All except for the Beetle had their merits. Beemers are great, but man – they do break and they do cost big bucls when they do. Had repairs on all of them similar to repairs on the domestics. Also had over twenty-five U.S. cars. Caddies, Mark VII and Mark VIII, Olds, Dodges, Buicks, Fords, Pontiacs, Corvair, Mustang, Thunderbird Super Coupe. Only real disappointment was a 1982 Chev Cavalier. Right now have a 2002 BMW525, 1998 C5 Corvette, 2006 Caddy SRX, 1986 Chevy pickup I got for 1500 four years ago and put 1200 into – runs great. The reliability difference between Euro and American is close to a push with U.S. being slightly more reliable across the board. Japanese and Korean are a little better, although I’ll admit their reputation is establshed and well deserved, at least for the Japanese. Korean’s first entries sucked, however – remember? Most Fords and newer GM models are very good – check Consumer Reports. Chrysler is lagging a bit, but Fiat owns them now. When Fiat was selling here in the late sixties, early seventies, they were TERRIBLY unreliable, but the FIAT Spider was “Cute.” Same with anything from England, including Rolls, MG, Jags in the early days. Ford saved Jaguar and was largely responsible for their improvement in reliability. Mercedes and VW until recent models have been beautiful cars but very unreliable. Do your homework,, boys. If I’m lyin’ I’m dyin’.
I submit that almost all new cars suck. I’m going to change the scope from American vs. foreign to new versus old. This equates to comparing the new, Japanese-dominated market to the old American-dominated market of a few decades ago and longer. If you drive an old car, or even go to a junkyard, you’ll see that the American companies once delivered quality. Cars were large and made solidly of strong metals and so were their engines. The exteriors would be adorned with emblems, chrome, vinyl tops, hood ornaments and unique styling. Interiors had switches and handles that were solid and reasonably unbreakable. Interior space was well proportioned and many cars could seat 6 with comfort. If a guard rail was hit, the guard rail was destroyed and a dent left in the the car. Cars rode smootly and softly. Compare this with the new cars of today. Everything is plastic unless it can’t be, inside and out. The bumpers are fiberglass and many are filled with styrofoam with a pathetic, small metal bar inside. Hit a guard rail and the rail is left intact while your car collapes and causes thousands of dollars worth of damage. Interiors barely fit four and do not do so with comfort. Every car looks alike and is plain – no molding, no ornaments, and even the brand names will be painted on or imprinted into the plastic of the bumper instead the company spending 50 cents for a piece of trim. The engines are tiny and overworked. They have annoying timing belts instead of chains and use aluminum parts instead of steel. Everything from turn signal levers to window switches feel like they could easily break and more often do. The suspension is hard and the cars are loud. Proportions are awkward with fat, stubby tail ends and hoods that curve away to use as little material as possible. A new car looks, feels, and is disposable, made as cheaply as possible to maximize profits. Compare a “luxury” Lexus to the Cadillacs and Lincolns of the past and those old beasts will blow away the supposed luxury of anything on the market today. Compare a true sports car of the past, like a Mustang or Firebird, to the “sporty” garbage Honda puts out or to a new Mustang that thinks its got balls with its V6. Compare a neutered crossover with the grocery-getter station wagon that sat 9. The only way new cars are superior is in the natural evolution better technology (for example fuel injection efficiency versus a carbureator) but the past vehicles did the best they could with what they had where it seems practically every new cars actually uses technological advances to cut corners whenever possible. Even though both American and foreign cars suffer from this fever to maximize profits and lower the standard of what a car should be, I blame this trend initially on the foreigners. It was the Japanese who flooded this country with these tiny, plain, plastic cars. Americans, seeing the potential of the low quality Jap-crap for removing the cost and character from their cars, slowly started downgrading the cars to match and the profits were up…for awhile. In the end the Japanese were making crap, but it was more reliable crap than the Americans ended switching to and a new era was born of lame and boring cars like Toyota ruling the road. Kids today will grow up thinking a Focus is cool, an Accord with a V6 is powerful, a Chevy Impala is big, and a Lexus is luxurious. Most will never know what both American and foreign companies aren’t giving them.
My first car was a VW bug.
It wasn’t particularly comfortable, fuel efficient nor safe. It had the badges and chrome you speak about but I would much preferred to have a car of the capabilities of a Yaris than that bug. It would have been seen as a supercar!
people are getting better cars, note the declining road fatality rate for the last 4 decades, at prices that, inflation adjusted, are declining as well. Additionally cars are way more efficient and deliver better emission results.
As is the case with so many things, 50 or a 100 years ago, many different solutions were tried to solve design problems. It that time many old designs are discarded and new adopted by experience narrows the design choices to the best performing and most cost efficient.
“They used to build them better” is a myth whose day is done. Other than for collector value, I wouldn’t trade any 1950 car for a 2010 model.